I’ll do my best to answer any questions you want to ask over the next couple of days. I’m not a professor of classics or philosophy. My book, How to Think Like Socrates, is written more from the perspective of a cognitive-behavioral psychotherapist. But I’ve done quite a lot of research on Socrates so I’m happy to share whatever I’ve learned. You can post anything you want but here are some questions for all of you to help get the discussion started…
What might we learn from Socrates that’s relevant to coping with the moral and psychological challenges we face in the modern world?
What do you think we can learn from Socrates that we can’t learn from the Stoics, such as Marcus Aurelius?
What’s your favorite passage, saying, or image, from the Socratic dialogues?
Also, feel free to comment on questions from other subscribers. Thanks for participating in the conversation!
Stoicism: Philosophy as a Way of Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
If I could ask Socrates, I’d ask: Is there one master virtue or quality I could focus on that would help me develop all other virtues? Or at least, is there one quality that could guide me in knowing which virtues to apply in different situations? What would he likely say? Is there a single foundational virtue from which everything else flows that I could focus on?
If wisdom, justice, and the other cardinal virtues are the highest virtues, how does Stoic mindfulness (prosoche) help us develop and practice them in daily life? Is mindfulness the foundation for these virtues, or is it simply a tool to help cultivate and apply them?
It's hard to say whether mindfulness is a tool or integral to wisdom, but it's very closely related to it, probably essential. We need to notice how we're using our mind in order to spot errors and fix them so we need mindfulness of a sort to achieve that. If we don't pay attention to our thoughts we can't expect to spot ourselves making errors quickly enough to correct ourselves.
That makes sense! Would Socrates say that we need to start with mindfulness in order to gain the wisdom to recognize which virtue is needed in each situation? And would he still agree that wisdom, alongside justice, is the master virtue?
I don't think Socrates discusses the idea of continual mindfulness, although we get that in Epictetus, centuries later. Socrates does explicitly say that we need self-knowledge, which he compares to an eye that sees itself, and you could call a form of mindfulness. For Socrates all virtues are one, because they're all basically forms of wisdom.
All the other virtues fall under the umbrella of Wisdom . Patience, Courage, Temperance and Justice are all aspects of Wisdom . Wisdom brings forth mindfulness, kindness, love and compassion. It is because of Wisdom that we have different names for describing the subtleties and nuances of life in action.
Why Socrates stood apart from everyone else is that he realized nobody possesses wisdom nor can they claim it since that is ignorance itself. Wisdom arises when we step aside from our ego and surrender our illusion of control of just about everything in the universe.
Then, instead of dismissing ourselves as just a drop in the ocean, we are the ocean in a drop as we allow ourselves to listen to nature and have her guide us towards ataraxia that opens to eudaemonia.
I enjoyed adapting the dialogues of Plato and Xenophon. One thing that took me by surprise is that a few readers have complained that the thought he book was mainly just history but most of it actually consists of Socratic dialogues. I think a percentage of people aren't used to that as a format for philosophy perhaps and don't perceive it as "doing philosophy".
But actually the philosophy, in dialogue form, was the aspect I enjoyed writing the most. It helped me to appreciate the words of Plato and Xenophon more deeply, by trying to condense and simplify what they said, and place it in a more dramatic context.
Donald, could you comment a bit on whether and how Socrates might offer a model for practicing therapists to help others live better lives? Do you think the Socratic elenchus or maieutic offers practicing therapists a method for helping clients deal with problems and, if so, which kinds of problems in particular?
There's too much perhaps to say there to fit into a single comment but i'll try to pick some key points. Socratic questioning, in the broad sense, has actually influenced most modern forms of psychotherapy. Aaron T. Beck, for instance, claimed he got the idea of Socratic questioning in cognitive therapy from reading Plato's Republic in college. Even B.F. Skinner says some interesting, and quite nuanced, things about the psychology of Socratic questioning in therapy, from an operant conditioning perspective.
I think one difference is that Socrates tends to focus even more on core values, such as our definition of the goal of life, or wisdom, and other virtues. In a sense, Beck and other cognitive therapists have already adapted Socratic questioning to be applied to specific mental health problems, but the classical Socratic Method as originally practiced would be more relevant to general moral and psychological self-improvement. I think for Socrates the process is perhaps more important than the outcome of questioning, which we get some sense of in CBT but not as explicitly. Although it makes perfect sense that becoming skilled at questioning our assumptions would help us in a fundamental way, by contributing to our overall cognitive flexibility - from this perspective, wisdom becomes more like a cognitive skill rather than a set of beliefs.
This notion of living a “better life” than the one we have is paradoxical particularly by the desire to want a better life than the one we have….because a “better life” begins immediately when we stop wanting one better and to start living this one fully by bringing forth our wish to know wisdom that will be the guide to this life — that we are in the midst of.
You could also say something similar about “the process” in regards to democracy. In this case, the American people have chosen someone that has little regard for “the process” or “wisdom” in particular concerning democracy and leadership. But “the process” that allows for democracy to deliver whomever is chosen regardless of the skill of that individual is in a sense honored more so that the quality of that person’s character who will end up leading them. (Over a Cliff in this particular instance)
So, in a way,by honoring “the process” we are ennobled, but at the same time wisdom points out that we are also “in danger” by putting someone in a leadership position that is unqualified.
As Socrates said "An unexamined life is not worth living" , so how should one go about doing that on a daily basis?
And I have pre ordered (India) the book which will be delivered to me on 5th December, would you be willing to be my first guest on my podcast after I read the book and talk about it?
I think, in a sense, the answer to that question is pretty easy. Socrates spent most of his time discussing the most important things in life with other people in dialogues, using the Socratic Method. Xenophon says he did this in the gymnasia in the mornings, in the shops in the Agora in the afternoon, and in the evenings visited the houses of his friends to discuss philosophy. Nobody does that today. Perhaps philosophy tutors, leading tutorials, and some counsellors, coaches, or therapists, might come closest, but still not the same. Socrates also appears, as I discuss in the book, to have engaged in hypothetical dialogues when alone, and to have kept notes, perhaps using methods such as the two-column technique, to continue doing the Socratic Method in private.
Send me the details of your podcast once it's up and running and I'll take a look.
I do not have a question, however, I wanted to say that I’ve recently finished the audio version of the book. I found it to be incredibly engaging, enjoyable and educational.
I have been devouring your books recently, as you have ignited a renewed interest in practical philosophy for living versus mental masturbation.
Just got Your book today. Looking forward to reading it.
Are there any ways that cbt have gotten beyond the learnings of Socrates, and for example proved that some of his “methods” or strategies, are bad for your mental health?
And are there ways that we can see the influence of Socrates on the third wave of cbt? Not just on Beck and Ellis?
Yes. CBT is based on current scientific research so in countless ways the many different forms of CBT go far beyond ancient philosophy. That's usually by adding insights that are tailored to specific problems rather than showing that things Socrates said were, in general, wrong, though. I talk about some links between Socrates and modern psychology in the book. However, one obvious thing is that there's considerable evidence now that ruminative thinking styles can contribute to depression and some forms of anxiety. Philosophical reflection could *potentially* lead to overly-ruminative thinking, although it's not clear if Socrates fell into that trap himself.
There's no direct influence of Socrates on third-wave CBT as far as I know. However, the emphasis on values clarification in modern CBT is obviously indebted ultimately to Socrates, and other Greek philosophers. The distinction between external outcomes and role or action oriented values is obviously descended from ancient virtue ethics such as Stoicism.
Thanks for the answer Donald. Are there anything that the third wave could use from Socrates, that’s not already been picked up by the second wave? Or has all wisdom from Socrates been extrapolated in modern therapy?
In today’s polarized political climate, how can we engage others in dialogue to reveal contradictions in their belief without escalating conflict or shutting down communication?
That's very difficult. I believe that part of the problem here is actually caused by the fact that we lack a word in English for one of the main things that needs to change. In modern psychotherapy, one of the most important concepts we employ is known as cognitive defusion or cognitive distancing. That refers to the extent to which someone is able to distinguish, in the moment, between their own thoughts or beliefs and the things to which they refer.
I think that the Stoics, and perhaps Socrates, had some basic intuition of this problem. To engage with other people who hold opposing beliefs, I think it helps to have a high level of cognitive defusion, i.e., to be able to observe ourselves thinking and to notice the limitations of our perspective and be able to entertain the possibility of alternative points of view.
The opposite (cognitive fusion) would be like a sort of tunnel vision, in which we take our opinions very seriously, and confuse them with objective facts known for certain. We need some detachment and flexibility in our own thinking, in other words, to be able to discuss hot topics in a healthy rational way.
I just came back from a big Thanksgiving dinner with many animated voices around the table. Since I've been reading about Stoicism and Socrates lately, I tried forced myself to first try to be a good listener, or at least be the best listener I could manage. Then if I could muster a sincere or good-hearted question, I tried that. Fortunately, they passed me a glass of good, sparkling cider and not a cup of hemlock!
Plato, in the Phaedo, says that Socrates wrote poems in prison, awaiting execution, and Diogenes Laertius claims to quote a few lines from them. Epictetus actually claims Socrates wrote copious notes on philosophy for self-improvement, which were never published.
As far as I can recall, he never really explicitly states any regrets, although you might try to infer some from his other remarks. It's possible he encouraged Alcibiades' imperialist ambitions but may have regretted that insofar as it contributed to the disastrous Sicilian Expedition and eventually his friend's downfall. But the historical evidence there is quite flimsy so it's hard to attribute regrets to Socrates with any confidence.
Socrates obviously spent his life questioning people and no doubt upset lots of people. Was there anything different about 399 BCE that prompted Meletes to bring charges against him? I always wondered what prompted somebody to eventually take him to court when he had been doing the same thing for decades
I talk about that briefly in the book. Socrates had already been threatened once or twice with execution under the preceding regime, the oligarchy known as the Thirty Tyrants. Anytus was the one who allegedly got Meletus to bring the charges, and he was supposedly offended by a specific remark Socrates had made about him being a sexual predator, which damaged his reputation in Athens. There are likely to be several other factors at play, though.
Socrates was considered wise because he knew that he knew nothing great or good. But was there any sense in which Socrates could be considered wise in a positive way?
I'll think about this but I can begin by giving a semi-academic answer, which is that scholars have noted he does appear to claim to be an expert on matchmaking and the "art of love". Curiously, Xenophon, who became a famous general, also spends several dialogues portraying Socrates' expertise in discussion of military strategy, tactics, and training.
Donald, during your research for the book, what was the thing or the handful of things you found out about Socrates, his life, or his time that most caught you by surprise?
I don't think there were really any major surprises because I was already familiar with most of the material. I hadn't noticed until recently that Epictetus appears to say Socrates kept copious self-improvement notes. I discovered that the shrine of Heavenly Aphrodite mentioned in Xenophon's Memorabilia, which Zeno read, was actually located right beside the Stoa Poikile. I didn't know that there was a defense speech by Isocrates written for Alcbiades' son, which paints a different picture of his actions during the war.
That's difficult to answer because of what scholars call the "Socratic problem", i.e., the impossibility of separating the two for certain. The thing we can perhaps say with most confidence (because Aristotle confirms it) is that Plato introduced the Theory of Forms, not Socrates, so his ethical ideal is more metaphysical and contemplative whereas Socrates was generally known for a more down-to-earth ethical orientation, based on rational self-examination.
Sócrates Brasileiro Sampaio de Souza Vieira de Oliveira was South American Footballer of the Year in 1981. I'm just guessing, but as he was Brazilian perhaps his favorite flavour was açaí. Although he was playing for the Corinthians at the time, this was not the Corinth, or the Socrates, of Ancient Greece.
I want to know more about the role of food - dining, relationship, consumption, production, self-control, etc. All of it. I am familiar with some of the proclamations about appetite, moderation, etc. Yet, it seems important socially, individually, collectively. Were the talkers doers?
Oh boy, that's another PhD thesis. Maybe a bit much to cover in a couple of sentences. Are you asking whether ancient philosophers led physically or socially active lives?
Well, it's a big subject that whole dissertations have been written about. You don't say what you already know about the topic so it's difficult to know what sort of answer to give in a couple of sentences. However, Socratic irony is the term that we use for Socrates' professing ignorance - there's some debate about how sincere this was and its significance. One obvious observation is that Socrates appears curiously similar to the stock ignorant buffoon characters in Greek satire, who often expose the conceit of other characters.
I have started another book today by David McRaney - How Minds Change 2022. I only read the first few chapters and still absorbing, however, in light of my recent explorations and reading of your books and a better understanding of Socrates I have something to ponder.
I am not sure if you have any knowledge of the concept of deep canvassing, which is a technique when knocking on doors for political campaigns, whether candidate or issue based to help people increase their knowledge and truth. The technique is supposed to be very transparent with no Machiavellian attempts of persuasion.
The parallels to the Socratic method seem very obvious to me and I’m excited exploring the application of what I am learning from Socrates, and its application in Civic discourse, fully understanding the Stoic objective to recognize what is in our control and what is not.
Hi. Couple of things. When asked about the God who said he was the wisest ‘man’ did that exclude women? As I imagine Socrates would suggest his mother or Aspasia. Other thought on lying. If a suicidal friend asked where their gun was wouldn’t it be more honest to say I’m not prepared to tell you that. Both honest and protective of friend. Enjoying the book immensely
Good question. I believe the original Greek in which the oracle's pronouncement is reported is actually gender neutral and would more literally be translated as "no-one is wiser than Socrates."
Yes, it would be more honest to say you're not prepared to tell them, but that's not the question Socrates is interested in examining in that passage. He's asking whether it's always unjust to lie. So you might conclude someone would be morally justified in saying they're not prepared to answer but also justified in telling a white lie. What matters, for the purpose of his example, is simply that it's not always clearly unjust to tell a lie.
In some of Plato's dialogues, it seems clear that Socrates believed in God and the immortality of the soul. However, there's the Socratic Problem. Do you think the real Socrates held such beliefs?
Ancient Greek religion was based in traditional observances unlike Christian faith. It's crucial to bear that difference in mind. I think Socrates believed the gods probably existed but was open to questioning religious beliefs. He's a philosopher, first and foremost, not a theologian.
Understood. As a follow-up question, why do you think the Stoics disregarded Socrates' apparent belief in the immateriality/immortality of the soul? After all, he was a top sage for them.
I don't think we can say for certain that Socrates did believe in the immortality and immateriality of the soul. Plato did but Socrates was known for generally avoiding metaphysics. In the Phaedo, Plato attributed these views to him but in the Apology, Socrates is more agnostic about the afterlife. In Xenophon, Socrates doesn't say much about the immortality of the soul, as far as I recall.
I see. So I suppose we can conclude that the Stoics recognized the distinction between Socrates and Plato and explains why the Stoics didn't follow their sage as he appears in the Phaedo.
The Stoic literature that survives is perhaps as much influenced by Xenophon's Memorabilia as by Plato's dialogues. It was by reading Xenophon that we're told Zeno was inspired to become a philosopher. The Stoics also seem to derive ideas about Socrates from other sources. So it's unlikely they believed that Plato's dialogues, as a whole, accurately depict Socrates.
Hi Donald. Was the sentence of drinking hemlock a common practice back then. Also, in regards to the socratic method, did Socrates use it in a way to lean people to a certain political view or belief system?
We hear of it in other cases. I believe it may have been reserved for more privileged individuals. Socrates was actually a member of the hoplite class - put crudely this was a relatively upper middle-class social group. Slaves and low-status foreign residents might be more likely to face execution from stoning or even being thrown off a cliff.
Yes and no. It's not clear that Socrates strongly favoured either of the two main political factions at Athens or a particular political system - this is a controversial topic. It does seem clear that he tended to argue, e.g., that those responsible for governing should have educated themselves in appropriate topics, such as the nature of justice, and they should have qualities like wisdom and temperance.
“Not Knowing” doesn’t imply ignorance. “Not Knowing” is most intimate since it is honesty itself ie; wisdom unmasked.
Our blind spot is how we view ourselves in relation to life, the world and the kosmos. Once we begin to see that we are not our thoughts then an opening in our understanding of who and what we are is accessed.
This unfolds into a vast new way of taking a view from above that allows us much more dexterity on our approach to living a life worth living.
Therefore, wealth, power and fame take a backseat as to what is of real value in the game of life. Fame, Wealth And Power blind us thoroughly and completely, covering every inch of our views, coloring all in its path.
These things are not innately wrong in themselves, but thinking makes them so. Unless we leap out of our minds (metaphorically speaking) we won’t see how we are fettered by our own views.
If a eudaemonic life is what we are after then clear comprehension of our minds and emotions is necessary to breakthrough the fog of narcissism that permeates us and our culture.
Socrates was such a person that not only grokked this but that it was systemic in our development as human beings. If we don’t see this then nothing but trouble will follow as sure as our shadow does.
I like the fact that Socrates says someone who knows that he does not know something will, often, be motivated to educate himself or to consult with an expert. For instance, if I know that I lack medical expertise, I will ask a physician for advice about medical matters. But someone who falsely believes that he knows something which in fact he does not know will, as Socrates puts it, be guided by his ignorance and will potentially behave in ways that are dangerous for himself and others.
The anecdotal tradition portrays Xanthippe (he may also have had another wife called Mytro) as a shrew. she was probably about 30 years younger than him, as while he's in prison, aged about 71, Plato says she was carrying his youngest son in her arms. Her name means "yellow horse", which possibly hints she may have come from a noble (known for horse-owning) family. A play on words is made about Socrates resembling a horse-trainer who chooses to test his skills by working with a particularly challenging horse. However, Xenophon actually portrays Socrates saying she's a good wife and mother.
Not sure I can easily summarize what he says about nagging here but it's covered in my book. Basically, it involves carefully distinguishing the appearance of hostility, in nagging, from the knowledge of someone's real character. He reminds his son, e.g., that actors on the stage don't take offence when other actors insult them because they know they don't really mean them any harm -- but his son also knows that although Xanthippe seems angry she actually loves him and cares for him.
Socrates remarked on this, saying that if he could survive his nagging wife, he could survive anything! Character building! Hope that helps your friend!
There's an anecdote that claims he was present at a performance and stood up to acknowledge to the audience that he was the one being ridiculed on stage. He supposedly took it with good humour, although in Plato's Apology he blames it for the jury being biased against him.
If I could ask Socrates, I’d ask: Is there one master virtue or quality I could focus on that would help me develop all other virtues? Or at least, is there one quality that could guide me in knowing which virtues to apply in different situations? What would he likely say? Is there a single foundational virtue from which everything else flows that I could focus on?
I think he'd say wisdom, and beside that, probably, justice.
If wisdom, justice, and the other cardinal virtues are the highest virtues, how does Stoic mindfulness (prosoche) help us develop and practice them in daily life? Is mindfulness the foundation for these virtues, or is it simply a tool to help cultivate and apply them?
It's hard to say whether mindfulness is a tool or integral to wisdom, but it's very closely related to it, probably essential. We need to notice how we're using our mind in order to spot errors and fix them so we need mindfulness of a sort to achieve that. If we don't pay attention to our thoughts we can't expect to spot ourselves making errors quickly enough to correct ourselves.
That makes sense! Would Socrates say that we need to start with mindfulness in order to gain the wisdom to recognize which virtue is needed in each situation? And would he still agree that wisdom, alongside justice, is the master virtue?
I don't think Socrates discusses the idea of continual mindfulness, although we get that in Epictetus, centuries later. Socrates does explicitly say that we need self-knowledge, which he compares to an eye that sees itself, and you could call a form of mindfulness. For Socrates all virtues are one, because they're all basically forms of wisdom.
So where would Socrates likely advise me to start if I wanted to cultivate a virtuous character?
All the other virtues fall under the umbrella of Wisdom . Patience, Courage, Temperance and Justice are all aspects of Wisdom . Wisdom brings forth mindfulness, kindness, love and compassion. It is because of Wisdom that we have different names for describing the subtleties and nuances of life in action.
Why Socrates stood apart from everyone else is that he realized nobody possesses wisdom nor can they claim it since that is ignorance itself. Wisdom arises when we step aside from our ego and surrender our illusion of control of just about everything in the universe.
Then, instead of dismissing ourselves as just a drop in the ocean, we are the ocean in a drop as we allow ourselves to listen to nature and have her guide us towards ataraxia that opens to eudaemonia.
Awesome conversations
Thank you sir. I was going to ask you at the recent Q&A, What was you favorite part of the book to write?
I enjoyed adapting the dialogues of Plato and Xenophon. One thing that took me by surprise is that a few readers have complained that the thought he book was mainly just history but most of it actually consists of Socratic dialogues. I think a percentage of people aren't used to that as a format for philosophy perhaps and don't perceive it as "doing philosophy".
But actually the philosophy, in dialogue form, was the aspect I enjoyed writing the most. It helped me to appreciate the words of Plato and Xenophon more deeply, by trying to condense and simplify what they said, and place it in a more dramatic context.
Donald, could you comment a bit on whether and how Socrates might offer a model for practicing therapists to help others live better lives? Do you think the Socratic elenchus or maieutic offers practicing therapists a method for helping clients deal with problems and, if so, which kinds of problems in particular?
There's too much perhaps to say there to fit into a single comment but i'll try to pick some key points. Socratic questioning, in the broad sense, has actually influenced most modern forms of psychotherapy. Aaron T. Beck, for instance, claimed he got the idea of Socratic questioning in cognitive therapy from reading Plato's Republic in college. Even B.F. Skinner says some interesting, and quite nuanced, things about the psychology of Socratic questioning in therapy, from an operant conditioning perspective.
I think one difference is that Socrates tends to focus even more on core values, such as our definition of the goal of life, or wisdom, and other virtues. In a sense, Beck and other cognitive therapists have already adapted Socratic questioning to be applied to specific mental health problems, but the classical Socratic Method as originally practiced would be more relevant to general moral and psychological self-improvement. I think for Socrates the process is perhaps more important than the outcome of questioning, which we get some sense of in CBT but not as explicitly. Although it makes perfect sense that becoming skilled at questioning our assumptions would help us in a fundamental way, by contributing to our overall cognitive flexibility - from this perspective, wisdom becomes more like a cognitive skill rather than a set of beliefs.
This notion of living a “better life” than the one we have is paradoxical particularly by the desire to want a better life than the one we have….because a “better life” begins immediately when we stop wanting one better and to start living this one fully by bringing forth our wish to know wisdom that will be the guide to this life — that we are in the midst of.
You could also say something similar about “the process” in regards to democracy. In this case, the American people have chosen someone that has little regard for “the process” or “wisdom” in particular concerning democracy and leadership. But “the process” that allows for democracy to deliver whomever is chosen regardless of the skill of that individual is in a sense honored more so that the quality of that person’s character who will end up leading them. (Over a Cliff in this particular instance)
So, in a way,by honoring “the process” we are ennobled, but at the same time wisdom points out that we are also “in danger” by putting someone in a leadership position that is unqualified.
As Socrates said "An unexamined life is not worth living" , so how should one go about doing that on a daily basis?
And I have pre ordered (India) the book which will be delivered to me on 5th December, would you be willing to be my first guest on my podcast after I read the book and talk about it?
I think, in a sense, the answer to that question is pretty easy. Socrates spent most of his time discussing the most important things in life with other people in dialogues, using the Socratic Method. Xenophon says he did this in the gymnasia in the mornings, in the shops in the Agora in the afternoon, and in the evenings visited the houses of his friends to discuss philosophy. Nobody does that today. Perhaps philosophy tutors, leading tutorials, and some counsellors, coaches, or therapists, might come closest, but still not the same. Socrates also appears, as I discuss in the book, to have engaged in hypothetical dialogues when alone, and to have kept notes, perhaps using methods such as the two-column technique, to continue doing the Socratic Method in private.
Send me the details of your podcast once it's up and running and I'll take a look.
I do not have a question, however, I wanted to say that I’ve recently finished the audio version of the book. I found it to be incredibly engaging, enjoyable and educational.
I have been devouring your books recently, as you have ignited a renewed interest in practical philosophy for living versus mental masturbation.
Thank you
Glad you enjoyed the book, Charles. If you have time, please consider rating it online, on Audible (if that's where you got it) or Goodreads. Thanks!
Thanks for the reminder! I just reviewed and submitted on audible amazon. Says it may take a day to be approved.
Mental masturbation ROCKS!
Hi Donald
Just got Your book today. Looking forward to reading it.
Are there any ways that cbt have gotten beyond the learnings of Socrates, and for example proved that some of his “methods” or strategies, are bad for your mental health?
And are there ways that we can see the influence of Socrates on the third wave of cbt? Not just on Beck and Ellis?
Kind regards
Christian
Yes. CBT is based on current scientific research so in countless ways the many different forms of CBT go far beyond ancient philosophy. That's usually by adding insights that are tailored to specific problems rather than showing that things Socrates said were, in general, wrong, though. I talk about some links between Socrates and modern psychology in the book. However, one obvious thing is that there's considerable evidence now that ruminative thinking styles can contribute to depression and some forms of anxiety. Philosophical reflection could *potentially* lead to overly-ruminative thinking, although it's not clear if Socrates fell into that trap himself.
There's no direct influence of Socrates on third-wave CBT as far as I know. However, the emphasis on values clarification in modern CBT is obviously indebted ultimately to Socrates, and other Greek philosophers. The distinction between external outcomes and role or action oriented values is obviously descended from ancient virtue ethics such as Stoicism.
Thanks for the answer Donald. Are there anything that the third wave could use from Socrates, that’s not already been picked up by the second wave? Or has all wisdom from Socrates been extrapolated in modern therapy?
In today’s polarized political climate, how can we engage others in dialogue to reveal contradictions in their belief without escalating conflict or shutting down communication?
That's very difficult. I believe that part of the problem here is actually caused by the fact that we lack a word in English for one of the main things that needs to change. In modern psychotherapy, one of the most important concepts we employ is known as cognitive defusion or cognitive distancing. That refers to the extent to which someone is able to distinguish, in the moment, between their own thoughts or beliefs and the things to which they refer.
I think that the Stoics, and perhaps Socrates, had some basic intuition of this problem. To engage with other people who hold opposing beliefs, I think it helps to have a high level of cognitive defusion, i.e., to be able to observe ourselves thinking and to notice the limitations of our perspective and be able to entertain the possibility of alternative points of view.
The opposite (cognitive fusion) would be like a sort of tunnel vision, in which we take our opinions very seriously, and confuse them with objective facts known for certain. We need some detachment and flexibility in our own thinking, in other words, to be able to discuss hot topics in a healthy rational way.
I just came back from a big Thanksgiving dinner with many animated voices around the table. Since I've been reading about Stoicism and Socrates lately, I tried forced myself to first try to be a good listener, or at least be the best listener I could manage. Then if I could muster a sincere or good-hearted question, I tried that. Fortunately, they passed me a glass of good, sparkling cider and not a cup of hemlock!
Did Socrates literally never write anything? I know he never wrote books but did he refuse to even write a shopping list?
Plato, in the Phaedo, says that Socrates wrote poems in prison, awaiting execution, and Diogenes Laertius claims to quote a few lines from them. Epictetus actually claims Socrates wrote copious notes on philosophy for self-improvement, which were never published.
Socrates the Poet! Great to learn this. Thank you.
Throughout your research, what would you say was Socrates biggest regret?
As far as I can recall, he never really explicitly states any regrets, although you might try to infer some from his other remarks. It's possible he encouraged Alcibiades' imperialist ambitions but may have regretted that insofar as it contributed to the disastrous Sicilian Expedition and eventually his friend's downfall. But the historical evidence there is quite flimsy so it's hard to attribute regrets to Socrates with any confidence.
Thank you for your response, I love your work!
Socrates obviously spent his life questioning people and no doubt upset lots of people. Was there anything different about 399 BCE that prompted Meletes to bring charges against him? I always wondered what prompted somebody to eventually take him to court when he had been doing the same thing for decades
I talk about that briefly in the book. Socrates had already been threatened once or twice with execution under the preceding regime, the oligarchy known as the Thirty Tyrants. Anytus was the one who allegedly got Meletus to bring the charges, and he was supposedly offended by a specific remark Socrates had made about him being a sexual predator, which damaged his reputation in Athens. There are likely to be several other factors at play, though.
Looking forward to reading your book Donald. I’m sure it will stimulate many questions.
Socrates was considered wise because he knew that he knew nothing great or good. But was there any sense in which Socrates could be considered wise in a positive way?
I'll think about this but I can begin by giving a semi-academic answer, which is that scholars have noted he does appear to claim to be an expert on matchmaking and the "art of love". Curiously, Xenophon, who became a famous general, also spends several dialogues portraying Socrates' expertise in discussion of military strategy, tactics, and training.
Donald, during your research for the book, what was the thing or the handful of things you found out about Socrates, his life, or his time that most caught you by surprise?
I don't think there were really any major surprises because I was already familiar with most of the material. I hadn't noticed until recently that Epictetus appears to say Socrates kept copious self-improvement notes. I discovered that the shrine of Heavenly Aphrodite mentioned in Xenophon's Memorabilia, which Zeno read, was actually located right beside the Stoa Poikile. I didn't know that there was a defense speech by Isocrates written for Alcbiades' son, which paints a different picture of his actions during the war.
What do you see as the essential difference between Socrates and Plato in terms of their ethics?
That's difficult to answer because of what scholars call the "Socratic problem", i.e., the impossibility of separating the two for certain. The thing we can perhaps say with most confidence (because Aristotle confirms it) is that Plato introduced the Theory of Forms, not Socrates, so his ethical ideal is more metaphysical and contemplative whereas Socrates was generally known for a more down-to-earth ethical orientation, based on rational self-examination.
In what year was Socrates named as South American 'Footballer of the year' and for a bonus point, What was his favourite flavour ice cream?
Not the sort of question I was expecting.
Sócrates Brasileiro Sampaio de Souza Vieira de Oliveira was South American Footballer of the Year in 1981. I'm just guessing, but as he was Brazilian perhaps his favorite flavour was açaí. Although he was playing for the Corinthians at the time, this was not the Corinth, or the Socrates, of Ancient Greece.
I want to know more about the role of food - dining, relationship, consumption, production, self-control, etc. All of it. I am familiar with some of the proclamations about appetite, moderation, etc. Yet, it seems important socially, individually, collectively. Were the talkers doers?
Oh boy, that's another PhD thesis. Maybe a bit much to cover in a couple of sentences. Are you asking whether ancient philosophers led physically or socially active lives?
What about what's known as Socratic irony? Can you talk a bit about that?
Well, it's a big subject that whole dissertations have been written about. You don't say what you already know about the topic so it's difficult to know what sort of answer to give in a couple of sentences. However, Socratic irony is the term that we use for Socrates' professing ignorance - there's some debate about how sincere this was and its significance. One obvious observation is that Socrates appears curiously similar to the stock ignorant buffoon characters in Greek satire, who often expose the conceit of other characters.
That's a fine summary of what I wanted for clarification! Thank you!
I have started another book today by David McRaney - How Minds Change 2022. I only read the first few chapters and still absorbing, however, in light of my recent explorations and reading of your books and a better understanding of Socrates I have something to ponder.
I am not sure if you have any knowledge of the concept of deep canvassing, which is a technique when knocking on doors for political campaigns, whether candidate or issue based to help people increase their knowledge and truth. The technique is supposed to be very transparent with no Machiavellian attempts of persuasion.
The parallels to the Socratic method seem very obvious to me and I’m excited exploring the application of what I am learning from Socrates, and its application in Civic discourse, fully understanding the Stoic objective to recognize what is in our control and what is not.
Thank you
Hi. Couple of things. When asked about the God who said he was the wisest ‘man’ did that exclude women? As I imagine Socrates would suggest his mother or Aspasia. Other thought on lying. If a suicidal friend asked where their gun was wouldn’t it be more honest to say I’m not prepared to tell you that. Both honest and protective of friend. Enjoying the book immensely
Good question. I believe the original Greek in which the oracle's pronouncement is reported is actually gender neutral and would more literally be translated as "no-one is wiser than Socrates."
Yes, it would be more honest to say you're not prepared to tell them, but that's not the question Socrates is interested in examining in that passage. He's asking whether it's always unjust to lie. So you might conclude someone would be morally justified in saying they're not prepared to answer but also justified in telling a white lie. What matters, for the purpose of his example, is simply that it's not always clearly unjust to tell a lie.
In some of Plato's dialogues, it seems clear that Socrates believed in God and the immortality of the soul. However, there's the Socratic Problem. Do you think the real Socrates held such beliefs?
Ancient Greek religion was based in traditional observances unlike Christian faith. It's crucial to bear that difference in mind. I think Socrates believed the gods probably existed but was open to questioning religious beliefs. He's a philosopher, first and foremost, not a theologian.
Understood. As a follow-up question, why do you think the Stoics disregarded Socrates' apparent belief in the immateriality/immortality of the soul? After all, he was a top sage for them.
I don't think we can say for certain that Socrates did believe in the immortality and immateriality of the soul. Plato did but Socrates was known for generally avoiding metaphysics. In the Phaedo, Plato attributed these views to him but in the Apology, Socrates is more agnostic about the afterlife. In Xenophon, Socrates doesn't say much about the immortality of the soul, as far as I recall.
I see. So I suppose we can conclude that the Stoics recognized the distinction between Socrates and Plato and explains why the Stoics didn't follow their sage as he appears in the Phaedo.
The Stoic literature that survives is perhaps as much influenced by Xenophon's Memorabilia as by Plato's dialogues. It was by reading Xenophon that we're told Zeno was inspired to become a philosopher. The Stoics also seem to derive ideas about Socrates from other sources. So it's unlikely they believed that Plato's dialogues, as a whole, accurately depict Socrates.
Got it! Thank you!
In the Symposium I believe Socrates says that Love is the love of the Beautiful
I would like to ask Socrates if it it were possible to find Beauty in what others consider the ugly ?
Hi Donald. Was the sentence of drinking hemlock a common practice back then. Also, in regards to the socratic method, did Socrates use it in a way to lean people to a certain political view or belief system?
We hear of it in other cases. I believe it may have been reserved for more privileged individuals. Socrates was actually a member of the hoplite class - put crudely this was a relatively upper middle-class social group. Slaves and low-status foreign residents might be more likely to face execution from stoning or even being thrown off a cliff.
Yes and no. It's not clear that Socrates strongly favoured either of the two main political factions at Athens or a particular political system - this is a controversial topic. It does seem clear that he tended to argue, e.g., that those responsible for governing should have educated themselves in appropriate topics, such as the nature of justice, and they should have qualities like wisdom and temperance.
“Not Knowing” doesn’t imply ignorance. “Not Knowing” is most intimate since it is honesty itself ie; wisdom unmasked.
Our blind spot is how we view ourselves in relation to life, the world and the kosmos. Once we begin to see that we are not our thoughts then an opening in our understanding of who and what we are is accessed.
This unfolds into a vast new way of taking a view from above that allows us much more dexterity on our approach to living a life worth living.
Therefore, wealth, power and fame take a backseat as to what is of real value in the game of life. Fame, Wealth And Power blind us thoroughly and completely, covering every inch of our views, coloring all in its path.
These things are not innately wrong in themselves, but thinking makes them so. Unless we leap out of our minds (metaphorically speaking) we won’t see how we are fettered by our own views.
If a eudaemonic life is what we are after then clear comprehension of our minds and emotions is necessary to breakthrough the fog of narcissism that permeates us and our culture.
Socrates was such a person that not only grokked this but that it was systemic in our development as human beings. If we don’t see this then nothing but trouble will follow as sure as our shadow does.
I like the fact that Socrates says someone who knows that he does not know something will, often, be motivated to educate himself or to consult with an expert. For instance, if I know that I lack medical expertise, I will ask a physician for advice about medical matters. But someone who falsely believes that he knows something which in fact he does not know will, as Socrates puts it, be guided by his ignorance and will potentially behave in ways that are dangerous for himself and others.
Is it true his wife was a nightmare, and what advice would he have for dealing with a nagging wife? (Asking for a friend)
The anecdotal tradition portrays Xanthippe (he may also have had another wife called Mytro) as a shrew. she was probably about 30 years younger than him, as while he's in prison, aged about 71, Plato says she was carrying his youngest son in her arms. Her name means "yellow horse", which possibly hints she may have come from a noble (known for horse-owning) family. A play on words is made about Socrates resembling a horse-trainer who chooses to test his skills by working with a particularly challenging horse. However, Xenophon actually portrays Socrates saying she's a good wife and mother.
Not sure I can easily summarize what he says about nagging here but it's covered in my book. Basically, it involves carefully distinguishing the appearance of hostility, in nagging, from the knowledge of someone's real character. He reminds his son, e.g., that actors on the stage don't take offence when other actors insult them because they know they don't really mean them any harm -- but his son also knows that although Xanthippe seems angry she actually loves him and cares for him.
Socrates remarked on this, saying that if he could survive his nagging wife, he could survive anything! Character building! Hope that helps your friend!
Would Socrates have laughed at Aristophanes’ depiction of him in The Clouds?
There's an anecdote that claims he was present at a performance and stood up to acknowledge to the audience that he was the one being ridiculed on stage. He supposedly took it with good humour, although in Plato's Apology he blames it for the jury being biased against him.
Have you read Sam Harris’s book (very short) on Lying. Sort of very persuasive. Just as you’re planning to chat with him. Looking forward to that.