I’ll do my best to answer any questions you want to ask over the next couple of days. I’m not a professor of classics or philosophy. My book, How to Think Like Socrates, is written more from the perspective of a cognitive-behavioral psychotherapist. But I’ve done quite a lot of research on Socrates so I’m happy to share whatever I’ve learned. You can post anything you want but here are some questions for all of you to help get the discussion started…
What might we learn from Socrates that’s relevant to coping with the moral and psychological challenges we face in the modern world?
What do you think we can learn from Socrates that we can’t learn from the Stoics, such as Marcus Aurelius?
What’s your favorite passage, saying, or image, from the Socratic dialogues?
Also, feel free to comment on questions from other subscribers. Thanks for participating in the conversation!
Stoicism: Philosophy as a Way of Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
I enjoyed adapting the dialogues of Plato and Xenophon. One thing that took me by surprise is that a few readers have complained that the thought he book was mainly just history but most of it actually consists of Socratic dialogues. I think a percentage of people aren't used to that as a format for philosophy perhaps and don't perceive it as "doing philosophy".
But actually the philosophy, in dialogue form, was the aspect I enjoyed writing the most. It helped me to appreciate the words of Plato and Xenophon more deeply, by trying to condense and simplify what they said, and place it in a more dramatic context.
Donald, could you comment a bit on whether and how Socrates might offer a model for practicing therapists to help others live better lives? Do you think the Socratic elenchus or maieutic offers practicing therapists a method for helping clients deal with problems and, if so, which kinds of problems in particular?
There's too much perhaps to say there to fit into a single comment but i'll try to pick some key points. Socratic questioning, in the broad sense, has actually influenced most modern forms of psychotherapy. Aaron T. Beck, for instance, claimed he got the idea of Socratic questioning in cognitive therapy from reading Plato's Republic in college. Even B.F. Skinner says some interesting, and quite nuanced, things about the psychology of Socratic questioning in therapy, from an operant conditioning perspective.
I think one difference is that Socrates tends to focus even more on core values, such as our definition of the goal of life, or wisdom, and other virtues. In a sense, Beck and other cognitive therapists have already adapted Socratic questioning to be applied to specific mental health problems, but the classical Socratic Method as originally practiced would be more relevant to general moral and psychological self-improvement. I think for Socrates the process is perhaps more important than the outcome of questioning, which we get some sense of in CBT but not as explicitly. Although it makes perfect sense that becoming skilled at questioning our assumptions would help us in a fundamental way, by contributing to our overall cognitive flexibility - from this perspective, wisdom becomes more like a cognitive skill rather than a set of beliefs.
Plato, in the Phaedo, says that Socrates wrote poems in prison, awaiting execution, and Diogenes Laertius claims to quote a few lines from them. Epictetus actually claims Socrates wrote copious notes on philosophy for self-improvement, which were never published.
As far as I can recall, he never really explicitly states any regrets, although you might try to infer some from his other remarks. It's possible he encouraged Alcibiades' imperialist ambitions but may have regretted that insofar as it contributed to the disastrous Sicilian Expedition and eventually his friend's downfall. But the historical evidence there is quite flimsy so it's hard to attribute regrets to Socrates with any confidence.
If I could ask Socrates, I’d ask: Is there one master virtue or quality I could focus on that would help me develop all other virtues? Or at least, is there one quality that could guide me in knowing which virtues to apply in different situations? What would he likely say? Is there a single foundational virtue from which everything else flows that I could focus on?
If wisdom, justice, and the other cardinal virtues are the highest virtues, how does Stoic mindfulness (prosoche) help us develop and practice them in daily life? Is mindfulness the foundation for these virtues, or is it simply a tool to help cultivate and apply them?
Socrates obviously spent his life questioning people and no doubt upset lots of people. Was there anything different about 399 BCE that prompted Meletes to bring charges against him? I always wondered what prompted somebody to eventually take him to court when he had been doing the same thing for decades
I talk about that briefly in the book. Socrates had already been threatened once or twice with execution under the preceding regime, the oligarchy known as the Thirty Tyrants. Anytus was the one who allegedly got Meletus to bring the charges, and he was supposedly offended by a specific remark Socrates had made about him being a sexual predator, which damaged his reputation in Athens. There are likely to be several other factors at play, though.
Socrates was considered wise because he knew that he knew nothing great or good. But was there any sense in which Socrates could be considered wise in a positive way?
I'll think about this but I can begin by giving a semi-academic answer, which is that scholars have noted he does appear to claim to be an expert on matchmaking and the "art of love". Curiously, Xenophon, who became a famous general, also spends several dialogues portraying Socrates' expertise in discussion of military strategy, tactics, and training.
Socrates remarked on this, saying that if he could survive his nagging wife, he could survive anything! Character building! Hope that helps your friend!
There's an anecdote that claims he was present at a performance and stood up to acknowledge to the audience that he was the one being ridiculed on stage. He supposedly took it with good humour, although in Plato's Apology he blames it for the jury being biased against him.
In today’s polarized political climate, how can we engage others in dialogue to reveal contradictions in their belief without escalating conflict or shutting down communication?
That's very difficult. I believe that part of the problem here is actually caused by the fact that we lack a word in English for one of the main things that needs to change. In modern psychotherapy, one of the most important concepts we employ is known as cognitive defusion or cognitive distancing. That refers to the extent to which someone is able to distinguish, in the moment, between their own thoughts or beliefs and the things to which they refer.
I think that the Stoics, and perhaps Socrates, had some basic intuition of this problem. To engage with other people who hold opposing beliefs, I think it helps to have a high level of cognitive defusion, i.e., to be able to observe ourselves thinking and to notice the limitations of our perspective and be able to entertain the possibility of alternative points of view.
The opposite (cognitive fusion) would be like a sort of tunnel vision, in which we take our opinions very seriously, and confuse them with objective facts known for certain. We need some detachment and flexibility in our own thinking, in other words, to be able to discuss hot topics in a healthy rational way.
Just got Your book today. Looking forward to reading it.
Are there any ways that cbt have gotten beyond the learnings of Socrates, and for example proved that some of his “methods” or strategies, are bad for your mental health?
And are there ways that we can see the influence of Socrates on the third wave of cbt? Not just on Beck and Ellis?
Thank you sir. I was going to ask you at the recent Q&A, What was you favorite part of the book to write?
I enjoyed adapting the dialogues of Plato and Xenophon. One thing that took me by surprise is that a few readers have complained that the thought he book was mainly just history but most of it actually consists of Socratic dialogues. I think a percentage of people aren't used to that as a format for philosophy perhaps and don't perceive it as "doing philosophy".
But actually the philosophy, in dialogue form, was the aspect I enjoyed writing the most. It helped me to appreciate the words of Plato and Xenophon more deeply, by trying to condense and simplify what they said, and place it in a more dramatic context.
Donald, could you comment a bit on whether and how Socrates might offer a model for practicing therapists to help others live better lives? Do you think the Socratic elenchus or maieutic offers practicing therapists a method for helping clients deal with problems and, if so, which kinds of problems in particular?
There's too much perhaps to say there to fit into a single comment but i'll try to pick some key points. Socratic questioning, in the broad sense, has actually influenced most modern forms of psychotherapy. Aaron T. Beck, for instance, claimed he got the idea of Socratic questioning in cognitive therapy from reading Plato's Republic in college. Even B.F. Skinner says some interesting, and quite nuanced, things about the psychology of Socratic questioning in therapy, from an operant conditioning perspective.
I think one difference is that Socrates tends to focus even more on core values, such as our definition of the goal of life, or wisdom, and other virtues. In a sense, Beck and other cognitive therapists have already adapted Socratic questioning to be applied to specific mental health problems, but the classical Socratic Method as originally practiced would be more relevant to general moral and psychological self-improvement. I think for Socrates the process is perhaps more important than the outcome of questioning, which we get some sense of in CBT but not as explicitly. Although it makes perfect sense that becoming skilled at questioning our assumptions would help us in a fundamental way, by contributing to our overall cognitive flexibility - from this perspective, wisdom becomes more like a cognitive skill rather than a set of beliefs.
Did Socrates literally never write anything? I know he never wrote books but did he refuse to even write a shopping list?
Plato, in the Phaedo, says that Socrates wrote poems in prison, awaiting execution, and Diogenes Laertius claims to quote a few lines from them. Epictetus actually claims Socrates wrote copious notes on philosophy for self-improvement, which were never published.
Throughout your research, what would you say was Socrates biggest regret?
As far as I can recall, he never really explicitly states any regrets, although you might try to infer some from his other remarks. It's possible he encouraged Alcibiades' imperialist ambitions but may have regretted that insofar as it contributed to the disastrous Sicilian Expedition and eventually his friend's downfall. But the historical evidence there is quite flimsy so it's hard to attribute regrets to Socrates with any confidence.
Thank you for your response, I love your work!
If I could ask Socrates, I’d ask: Is there one master virtue or quality I could focus on that would help me develop all other virtues? Or at least, is there one quality that could guide me in knowing which virtues to apply in different situations? What would he likely say? Is there a single foundational virtue from which everything else flows that I could focus on?
I think he'd say wisdom, and beside that, probably, justice.
If wisdom, justice, and the other cardinal virtues are the highest virtues, how does Stoic mindfulness (prosoche) help us develop and practice them in daily life? Is mindfulness the foundation for these virtues, or is it simply a tool to help cultivate and apply them?
Socrates obviously spent his life questioning people and no doubt upset lots of people. Was there anything different about 399 BCE that prompted Meletes to bring charges against him? I always wondered what prompted somebody to eventually take him to court when he had been doing the same thing for decades
I talk about that briefly in the book. Socrates had already been threatened once or twice with execution under the preceding regime, the oligarchy known as the Thirty Tyrants. Anytus was the one who allegedly got Meletus to bring the charges, and he was supposedly offended by a specific remark Socrates had made about him being a sexual predator, which damaged his reputation in Athens. There are likely to be several other factors at play, though.
Looking forward to reading your book Donald. I’m sure it will stimulate many questions.
Socrates was considered wise because he knew that he knew nothing great or good. But was there any sense in which Socrates could be considered wise in a positive way?
I'll think about this but I can begin by giving a semi-academic answer, which is that scholars have noted he does appear to claim to be an expert on matchmaking and the "art of love". Curiously, Xenophon, who became a famous general, also spends several dialogues portraying Socrates' expertise in discussion of military strategy, tactics, and training.
In what year was Socrates named as South American 'Footballer of the year' and for a bonus point, What was his favourite flavour ice cream?
Not the sort of question I was expecting.
Is it true his wife was a nightmare, and what advice would he have for dealing with a nagging wife? (Asking for a friend)
Socrates remarked on this, saying that if he could survive his nagging wife, he could survive anything! Character building! Hope that helps your friend!
Would Socrates have laughed at Aristophanes’ depiction of him in The Clouds?
There's an anecdote that claims he was present at a performance and stood up to acknowledge to the audience that he was the one being ridiculed on stage. He supposedly took it with good humour, although in Plato's Apology he blames it for the jury being biased against him.
In today’s polarized political climate, how can we engage others in dialogue to reveal contradictions in their belief without escalating conflict or shutting down communication?
That's very difficult. I believe that part of the problem here is actually caused by the fact that we lack a word in English for one of the main things that needs to change. In modern psychotherapy, one of the most important concepts we employ is known as cognitive defusion or cognitive distancing. That refers to the extent to which someone is able to distinguish, in the moment, between their own thoughts or beliefs and the things to which they refer.
I think that the Stoics, and perhaps Socrates, had some basic intuition of this problem. To engage with other people who hold opposing beliefs, I think it helps to have a high level of cognitive defusion, i.e., to be able to observe ourselves thinking and to notice the limitations of our perspective and be able to entertain the possibility of alternative points of view.
The opposite (cognitive fusion) would be like a sort of tunnel vision, in which we take our opinions very seriously, and confuse them with objective facts known for certain. We need some detachment and flexibility in our own thinking, in other words, to be able to discuss hot topics in a healthy rational way.
Hi Donald
Just got Your book today. Looking forward to reading it.
Are there any ways that cbt have gotten beyond the learnings of Socrates, and for example proved that some of his “methods” or strategies, are bad for your mental health?
And are there ways that we can see the influence of Socrates on the third wave of cbt? Not just on Beck and Ellis?
Kind regards
Christian