Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Chester H. Sunde, Psy.D.'s avatar

A needed correction, and the texts are with you: the sage trembles, weeps, keeps his relationships. I have been guilty of the oversimplification you are answering. That you have to keep answering it is worth a thought: the caricature holds on not only because of the modern word, but because the doctrine files the love of a child among the indifferents and leaves grief out of the good feelings. I’d add the positive half of the case, since I think it’s where the Stoics come up one short.

They named the sound affective states at Diogenes Laertius 7.116: chara (joy), eulabeia (caution), boulēsis (rational wishing), the eupatheiai (good-feelings), each the rational form of a passion held under true judgment. Three entries. The passions they answer are four. The missing one is lypē, defined at 7.111 as sustolē psychēs alogos (an irrational contraction of the psyche): a shutting-down, nearer to depression than to the outward reach of grief. They filed grief under a pathology of withdrawal, and left it no good counterpart, because grief judges a loss to be kakon (bad, harmful): not evil in the strong sense your translation carries, just bad, a harm, which is the harder claim to defend.

What decides it is that both Plato and the Stoics define the good as what benefits and preserves the psyche (Politeia 608e; Diogenes Laertius 7.103). By that test the question for any emotion is whether it preserves the psyche or corrupts it, not whether its object is an indifferent, and a grief that heals what has been hurt preserves. Their own list already grants the friend’s happiness as a good (7.95, 7.97) and affection as a good feeling under boulēsis (7.116), while denying that the friend’s death is any harm. Plato has a seat for the whole of it, the thumoeides, the part that loves and therefore grieves and is angered when what it loves is harmed. The Stoics named the love, oikeiōsis, and had no part to house it in.

I’ve set out the full case in an article, with the 604b-c deliberation passage and Seneca’s falling tears at Letters 99.16: https://chestersundepsyd569013.substack.com/p/the-empty-cell?r=1ujdpz&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true

It’s meant as eumenēs elenchos, and advocacy for Plato rather than a quarrel with you.

Jack Gedney's avatar

This article is a useful correction to a common misconception about Stoicism, but unfortunately promulgates the same misconception about the Epicureans. I was struck by the quote from Seneca saying that the Epicurean sage "does not even feel" discomforts, since that doesn't fit their typical language, so I looked up Letter 9. The Latin doesn't refer to the wise man "of the Epicureans"--it refers to "their" wise man, referring to the wise men of Stilpo and the Cynics, whom Epicurus was criticizing. Both the Loeb and Long/Graver editions translate and footnote this position as being attributed to the Cynics here, not to the Epicureans, so the given translation is simply incorrect.

More broadly, the Epicureans certainly feel emotions. The issue under dispute in that Seneca letter is Epicurus' position that friends are valuable because they provide us material aid and the security of knowing they will be there for us when we need them. I wouldn't describe cultivating reliable friendships as "experiential avoidance," any more than it would be to enroll in health insurance, manage your finances prudently, or avoid competing for wealth and fame. In terms of real-world behaviors, this is what Epicurus means by avoiding pain. (Their even greater emphasis was on avoiding superstitious fears and incorrect beliefs, which fits even less as "experiential avoidance.") The Epicureans also explicitly recommended accustoming oneself to hardship as one of their therapeutic methods for enduring the unavoidable difficulties of life, as in Seneca's Letter 18 ("Epicurus...used to have certain days during which he would do the bare minimum to quiet his hunger").

Epicureans avoid unnecessary pain, because that is prudent common sense, but avoidance is far from their only strategy. Overall, I think the common conception that they are generally warmer and more sympathetic than the Stoics is essentially correct.

4 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?